Judith Dada - La Famiglia

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Judith Dada is a General Partner at La Famiglia.

La Famiglia is a European seed stage venture capital fund investing in B2B technology companies that enable or disrupt large industries.

At La Famiglia, Judith focuses on the future of work, as well as data and ML-driven business models and she has invested in companies like personio, graphy, y42 , tagr and uncut among others.

La Famiglia is backed by a selection of world-leading entrepreneurs from various industries that provide precious early market access, impactful partnerships and deep expertise for La Famiglias’ portfolio companies.

During this episode we discuss the questions La Famiglia asks themselves to crystalize the mission, we discuss Gut instinct and talent vs hardwork.

I had soo much fun talking with Judith and i am sure you will too so without further ado please enjoy this fun, lively and insightful conversation with Judith Dada GP at la Famiglia.

Tue, 9/20 9:04AM • 38:57

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

la famiglia, founder, people, vc, type, life, world, big, company, energy, met, gp, programme, find, venture, struggle, feel, thinking, decision, hunch

SPEAKERS

Calin Fabri, Judith Dada

Calin Fabri  02:30

Tell me about your life before Venture Capital and after Venture Capital, what changed the most?

Judith  02:38

I actually don't think a tonne changed. The reason for that is that I think the biggest change that people I meet in VC, tell me comes with moving into Vc, is the fact that your private and your professional life suddenly don't have any boundaries anymore. Because, you know, Vc is such an informal market, in some sense that, you know, you meet people for coffee on the weekends, you know, we tend to work a lot of hours because we, we love what we do. And so all of these like boundaries that you typically have, when you think about kind of, you know, another professional job, kind of just get washed away when starting NBC. But I think for me, you know, I was always kind of someone that just loved working and made a lot of my passions, my work and my work, my passion. And so I didn't actually feel a big change kind of moving into the industry. And I was also fortunate, in that I was, you know, for a long time dating a tech entrepreneur, who's today, my husband, and also studying with a lot of tech entrepreneurs. And so I've kind of always been surrounded by a lot of the folks I now get to work with, which is a great privilege. And so it doesn't feel like a terrible lot has changed.

Calin Fabri  03:51

And how did your passion brought you to the startup world or to VC.

Judith  03:57

So looking back at how I stumbled into this whole space, you know, I was always someone who thought I was going to have a very linear career, you know, I was a nerd in school, I was, you know, kind of the ones spending a tonne of my free time in school, you know, running all sorts of different school clubs and activities. And I come from an immigrant family. So my father is from Nigeria. So, you know, in his view, there was only three careers that I could have, I could either be a doctor, or I could be a lawyer, or I could maybe be an engineer, but that's about it. And so I always thought, you know, I'm going to end up doing something in that realm. But then at some point, I realised I'm going to be a horrible doctor. And that's not what I want to do with my life. And so I stumbled into social science and media because that was something that I found terribly interesting. And then when studying communication science, economics and business administration, I took over I'm various largest student magazine, which was called when he caught at the time. And it was a print magazine, you know, 10s of 1000s of magazines being printed every year. And I decided that was a horrible business model, you know, for kind of the early 2010s. And we should take that online. And so suddenly, I was faced with, you know, the world of the internet, not just from a pure consumer perspective, but actually the perspective of how do you actually administer and inform kind of an online news outlet for students. And I realised I didn't know anything about the web. And so went into studying digital technology management, which was a big door opener into the big wide world of tech. And through that kind of study programme, I got to meet a lot of computer scientists, electrical engineers, and folks that really kind of, you know, came from what I would consider the tech world. And that's how I eventually ended up in VC, you know, I met a lot of people who went on to become founders, I met my you know, back then boyfriend today, husband there, and La Familia actually was the fund that was one of their first investors. And so it was through actually my my private life, that I got to got to meet the fund. I also then ended up working at Facebook, Claire, I started the Facebook VC programme, which was like a small programme to really help venture funds and their best performing portfolio companies to scale better on the platform. And so it was also through that programme, that I got to work with VCs, but it was all very nonlinear. You know, I didn't have a big master plan to end up doing this. And I kind of stumbled into it. And today, I feel very fortunate to have been able to, you know, make these stumbles. But yeah, I think sometimes it's just being curious and being in the right place at the right time, and having folks around you that kind of show you what's possible.

Calin Fabri  06:49

And do you remember the decision process in your head , did you have like a pros and cons list or it was just natural, like, I'm, I'm born to do this

Judith  07:00

oh, my God, I definitely did not move into this field thinking I was born to do this. I'm not sure I ever, I ever really thought about anything in my life as being born. To do that maybe that comes with, you know, kind of growing up as someone with kind of an immigrant identity. You know, I think there's always more of an imposter syndrome going on and, you know, very self confident feeling that you feel born to do something, I think, you know, this whole feeling boring to do something is, in my view, also a bit of a farce. And maybe coming back to the other part of your question, did I have any type of to do lists, I didn't like a you know, pros and cons list. I didn't. I used to be someone in school that had lots of pros and cons. And you know, lots of like, sticky notes. And I would try and quantify everything to try and make the best decision. But then joining la familia was very much a gut feel decision. You know, I met Jeanette, who co founded the firm, we absolutely kind of on a professional level fell in love with one another right, like, I just got along so well with her, you know, we synced extremely well, we disagree on a lot of things, but we disagree, you know, in the most compassionate way. I think that's just something that I found, you know, kind of moving into this world that has just proven that the initial gut feeling when meeting her saying, You know what, I just think this is going to be an exciting ride. I'm not sure where it's gonna take me, but I think I want to go on it, you know, was the was the right decision that could have easily failed, could have been a horrible decision. And then I would have probably wished I would have had some, you know, pro and con lists, and would have thought about this in in a much more profound way. But I think a lot of the time, and you can call me a bit of an esoteric, you know, lunatic, but I think a lot of life comes down to energy, and the types of energy that you feel for people, but you also feel for subjects that you feel for organisations that you feel for cultures. And I think if you listen inside yourselves and kind of also let yourself to a certain extent, be drawn by that energy. I think beautiful things can come from that. And so, when meeting, Jeanette, you know, and meeting a lot of the people that I hold very dear, in my life, I felt that type of energy, and it's something that I've just over time learn to trust to follow. And so that's a bit of why I'm here today. No big master plan.

Calin Fabri  09:14

Love it. And what was the first year in venture like, do you remember the first entrepreneur that you have met? Were you looking for the type of energy to fall in love with their mission?

Judith  09:25

I sadly do not remember the first entrepreneur I met I wish I did. I was I was like, just again now thinking like, Oh my God, who was that person? And unfortunately really can't say that my first year in venture was I think, like that of probably many people who move into venture, you have this idea of what your life and venture will look like. And you read all the books, you know, venture deals and so on like Sand Hill Road and so on and so forth. And then you kind of over time, just try to match This idealistic systematic view of what the venture world should be with the bottom up messy reality of what actually ends up being every day. And then over time, you know, the to converge more and more, I think in the beginning, they're very kind of separate. And you're like, hold on, this is not at all, like what I read about in the book. So like in the movies, and then over time, I think you try to see beyond, you know, you try to see the actual patterns that do undergrad, the work that you do day to day. And so I think, to the question of, you know, like, meeting the first enterpreneurs, and what that was like, and did I feel this energy? I think I did, but then you're trying to kind of overcorrect your immediate instinct with some type of, you know, systems thinking or some type of ABC framework that you picked up somewhere. And a lot of the time, that ends up being frustrating, because you can't quite match it one to one to the reality that you have in front of you. And so I think it then takes just practice and time for you to form your own pattern matching. Right. So one thing I realised pretty early on is I have a bias for builders, versus theorists. But then it took me quite a long time to really figure out well, what are the data points that I can spot, not the data points that I can theoretically read about what what are things that I'm really good at spotting and like picking up on that show me that a person is a builder? And so I think, you know, it's these types of experiences where you match the theoretical framework to like your own lived experience, and really try to find like, what are the different things that you are actually reliably good at spotting that then over time makes, you know, kind of the investing practice and hopefully the kind of getting better every week of the job?

Calin Fabri  11:45

I would like to maybe focus on gut decisions, instinct and energy. Do you remember a founder that when you met, you had this feeling you had this energy? I'm curious, just like how this framework and how you created this framework for yourself.

Judith  12:03

tonnes of founders, you know, I think tonnes of founders that ended up you know, fortunately being in our portfolio with founders where I had that instinct or that gut feeling. And, you know, I think Alex from deal I think anyone who's ever met him knows that he is someone you have that instinct about, you know, Andrei from graph fi. He's another person that you know, as soon as I went on one call, I jumped on the next plane and and tried to meet him because I felt he just had a very, very special energy and a very special effect also on the people around him. And there's many, many more names that I could mention Lisa, for example, Lisa grado and Philippa from from foetus, you know, another great example. And so I think, you know, that's, that's really part of the venture job, you know, we always tell our team, it's about the hunch. And you know, I think a hunch is not necessarily something that comes with someone being very extroverted. I think, you know, founders can be introverts or extroverts, and you can still, you know, end up having hunches about them. But I think it takes this pressure moment where after the call, you know, you don't go into too much questioning of the initial instinct, but you really, you do the questioning, you obviously do the work, you do the diligence, but the energy and the hunch is strong enough to really make sure you keep pressure, you know, kind of on a deal, you keep pressure on the overall process to then also make sure it goes over the line, I think, you know, there's always these founders that you meet, that you think are great, but you just kind of ended up, you know, ending the call and thinking like, yeah, it's great, but I just, I don't really feel like, you know, this is going to be the company that I'm willing to really fight over and give my kids my best to help succeed. And then there's other companies where you just, and in the beginning, it can be pretty irrational. And then you find your, you find in your analysis, you know, ways to rationalise and ways to understand why you had that instinct, where you really feel the energy and really, you know, know that you want to give it your all, sometimes over the course of diligence, you end up, you know, going against your hunch, and you actually think, you know, I had an initial hunch, but the diligence kind of shows, you know, this is just in my view, probably not going to be something that that we think is going to be a great investment for a firm, even though a lot of these times as we also know, we end up being wrong. But so that's kind of how I tend to think about it on a day to day basis.

Calin Fabri  14:21

How did your assessment of founders change during the years? And how did you develop your own framework, as you just mentioned, where you both combine, you know, a quantitative analysis, but then also trusting your, your gut feeling?

Judith  14:36

See, I don't think the assessment of founders changed. You know, I don't think I Are we as a firm invest into different types of founders today than we invested in yesterday. And at the end of the day, I think that's also because every founder is different. Why right? So I think it's actually really hard to say we invest in like type type a founder or type B founder because every founder is, you know, their own. I Individual their own identity, I just think that over time, you get to balance, how to weight the variables differently, hopefully more accurately, you know, but at the end of the day, I think in the beginning, you kind of think, you know, there's market, there's product, there's a founding team, there's timing, and then you kind of almost look at these things like a formula, you know, and you kind of put values on each of those different segments. And then you hope that in the end, that's going to be the magic investment decision. We're in reality, that's not how investing works, right, you need the conviction. And then you need to be able to understand which variable for what type of product, what type of founder, you actually need to weigh the most, right? Sometimes it really is market timing, that you put like an extra premium on, because you think market timing is just excellent. And together with the kind of founder, you know, experience it could make for something very, very meaningful, sometimes, you know, you really weigh founder much more heavily, because, you know, market timing, not so sure, but the founder just seems like someone who will be able to move mountains. And even though the timing might not be quite here yet, you know, they'll be able to gather enough gravitational force to then you know, kind of sustain the company long enough until the timing picks up. And so I think I really think it comes down to these individual investment decisions. And you know, these weights that are also in my view allowed to change, especially if you miss early stage like we do, this is very, very different, obviously, when you invest at the growth stages, but I think that's just something that you then learn to calibrate over time. And that's what I hopefully, you know, I was able to was was able to learn from the from the last five years of being in this industry.

Calin Fabri  16:37

And what is the mission of La Familia,

Judith  16:40

we talk about missions a lot. And I think, you know, these days, especially with a team that also has a lot of Gen, Y, Gen Z focus, you know, mission is something that's very important. I actually think that we tend to define mission less as the why, you know, I think a lot of people would define mission as the y, which I think is a very inward looking statement. It's about like, why you want to do it, whereas I think at La Familia, we try and define mission more as the for what? So for us, it's more of an outward looking question. And when we think about the, for what so, you know, for what are we doing this, from whom are we doing this? I think we want to kind of create a world where Europe, you know, has a very significant seat at the table, when it comes to the power of technology and technology companies more broadly, if you want to quantify it, you could say, you know, that kind of three, out of the 10 biggest tech companies in the world, we want to be European, and ideally, we want to be backing every single one of them. Another aspect for us that's really important is shaping the VC and really the tech world in a way to look very broadly like the world around us, which today it doesn't. So I think it is about representation, it is about inclusion, because I think that's something that probably is the for what for many VCs out there, you know, we all believe that there are massive challenges ahead of us, climate change being one of them, health challenges being one of them, but many, many more. And I think a lot of us also believe that it will take for technological leaps, and apply it technological products that need to address these challenges and eventually be able to solve them. Right. And so I think when you think about that, then it's all about, are you maximising the brain potential in the world? Like, are you maximising the types of problems that brains out there could be working on. And I think inclusion is a huge part of that. Because today, we just do a very bad job in terms of tapping all the potential brands that could be helping us and making these technological leaps, and applying technology to be able to solve these challenges. And so at the end of the day, you know, VC, for me is a scalability mechanism to boost great people and applying technology to problems. Like that's super simple. But I think it's also pretty awesome. And so that from you know, for me, I think also for La Familia is the big for what, and for who were doing this

Calin Fabri  19:13

very interesting, and I really liked the way you think. And I fully support having the top three tech companies in the world to be European. So let's do it. And what what deep dives have you done lately? And what excites you at the moment?

Judith  19:32

Boy, we have a lot of things that excite us at the moment. You know, we recently did another deep dive into kind of the open banking space. I think that's something that we keep thinking about. We haven't made an investment yet, but we're seeing a couple of really interesting companies coming out of the US obviously, more and more companies already in Europe because we've been a little bit earlier on this trend here. So that's something that we're very excited about. We do very regular deep dive still on kind of H are in what we call the age of the employee. We're still, you know, kind of polling Chief People officers to try and understand, you know, what are the three biggest problems that you have on a day to day basis? And what's the space for another big champion in HR next to personeel, and rippling? You know, so what is the niche in HR that is still deep enough to sustain the growth of a really big company. And I think there's still a bunch of things from compensation tools to staff planning tools to, you know, kind of the whole cultural infrastructure, learning and development. So that's something that we do spend a lot of time on still. And then last, but not least, you know, kind of just broadly, SMEs, that's a trend that's been around for a while, that's something that still really excites us, we just made another really exciting investment into a company based in Munich that's kind of doing, you know, workflow tooling and automation for for SMEs. And so did another deep dive in that to really understand, you know, what does the kind of tooling landscape of SMEs look like today? You know, where do we think there's still, you know, lots of white spots to be to be covered. So that's like some of the recent topics that we've been discussing and getting excited about at La Famiglia.

Calin Fabri  21:12

So let's get personal. I know you're a dog lover, you have a dog. So what is your honest opinion of cats?

Judith  21:20

I do not dislike cats, but I just do not like them as much as dogs. Like, my husband keeps saying that maybe we should also get a cat. And I would I'm like a big proponent of getting a second dog. Well, he's like, you know, maybe we should just get a cat instead. But I don't know, I just I know, you know, there's a big fight going on between dog lovers and cat lovers. But I still find cats kind of creepy. Like, I'm still like, I think if the cat could it will probably like, kill me and eat me. So I'm still camp dogs. But I have to say like, I'm also I'm also not against a cute kitten kind of rolling around in the sun in the garden.

Calin Fabri  22:03

Yeah, I'm definitely also camp dog. I just don't understand cats. And I'm terrified by them. What was the most challenging period in your career? And how did you overcome it?

Judith  22:13

I think the most challenging period of my career was probably when I was back at Facebook. And just very quickly, you know, kind of fell in love with the organisation. And I know, that's a controversial thing to say today, because people are like, but Facebook or metal or whatever, is an evil company. And I actually fundamentally disagree, I don't think it's an evil company. But that's a separate conversation. I think, however, the thing that I struggled with was that I think big tech companies do a really great job in cushioning you from any type of actual, self challenging mechanism, right. So when it comes to the types of environments that I think you need to really thrive, to really stretch yourself to really go the extra mile, you can do a lot of great work at tech companies without ever doing that, you know, and you kind of have great salaries, and you've got amazing colleagues, and you've got, you know, kind of amazing employee care in general. But I, I, you know, and I think I felt that kind of very quickly, after starting at the company, I felt very little of that, you know, kind of, well, how do I actually push myself to really go the extra mile, and to really kind of discover what impact I could have in the world, but also, you know, in my job more more generally. And so, I think that's something that a lot of folks in Silicon Valley are also speaking about, you know, to what extent are kind of the big tech companies kind of a black hole for talent, because they kind of put you in this weird, very comfortable position. Whereas if you stay for too long, you kind of lose sight of all the other challenges that you could be working on in the world. And these kinds of moments where you can really stretch yourself and really allow yourself to work on the most important problems, but also to give it kind of your your very best. And so, you know, that was just something that I didn't want to be someone who doesn't try and build that muscle. I'm not a fan of job hopping. I'm not a fan of you know, staying with a company for a short period of time. I think very often, especially these days, I think it's so easy for anyone in working in tech to find a job elsewhere, that people just tend to leave before they build the muscle of what growth actually means. And you know, in general, I would always recommend you know, when the going gets rough, maybe that's a great place to stay to be able to really kind of find your own leadership and find that growth muscle or build the growth muscle but I myself left after just one and a half years at the company right to to join La Familia and so that there was just a bigger struggle that was going on for a longer period of time. I didn't really kind of, you know, feel like this was going to be it but I also kind of was in this weird you know, kind of comfort so on. And so that was just something that I couldn't quite wrap my head around at the time. But then gladly I, you know, like gladly looking back now I did find the strength and the conviction to to say, You know what I don't I don't think this is it yet, I think I want to go explore something that's very risky, but could be ending up as something very fulfilling. So, you know, when I kind of had the first conversation with la familia, it was a, that was a very quick process in terms of, okay, I want to leave, but there was a longer process beforehand where I was like, should I proactively quit and like, go and figure out what that next step was going to look like. And that was the conversations in my head. And that was more of a struggle, than as soon as I kind of found up Amelia, I think that was the energy that I needed to then be able to stop that conversation and just say, Okay, go now, this is the right moment. So the struggle was more kind of the in decisiveness of like what to do in the ones before.

Calin Fabri  25:57

So what would you recommend for someone that is kind of struggling as and it is a little bit kind of in between? And has this kind of debates in their head, and they would like to do something else? What would be your advice to them.

Judith  26:10

I actually had a really great advice from my coach, just a few days ago. She was like, Judith, you keep coming back to me with the same type of struggle. In my case, my struggle is that I just don't find enough time for myself. And especially for doing like workouts, I should be doing way more sports than I am doing right now. And she's like, you keep coming back to me with this problem. But you know, I don't think your struggle is big enough, yet, I think you actually enjoy all the other things, you're doing way too much for that struggle to be meaningful enough for you to feel enough pain to actually make a change. And I thought that was such a great way of putting it because at the end of the day, she was right, you know, it's like, yes, I'd love to do kind of, you know, more whatever, you know, self care, sports, any of that. But at the end of the day, I just enjoy the other things that I'm doing way too much to really give that enough space in my life right now, that might change over time. But right now, it's just not one of the top priorities. And so I think, for the folks, you know, going back to kind of the example for when I was at Facebook, for the folks who are like kind of unhappy in their job, maybe you're not unhappy enough yet, you know, maybe it just needs to get worse before you have the energy to then make a change. You know, I think a lot of the time, we also in this current day and age, we tend to overthink things, right? And then we try to find this best theoretical solution where at the end of the day, a lot of it comes down to you just feeling a certain amount of pain, and that pain getting big enough for you to then have the energy to make a change. So I think that's one way of looking at it. I think the other way of looking at it is, you know, if you if you're struggling and you're unhappy, go find those sources of energy, right, go have conversations go meet people go look beyond the scope of the job that you have right now, I think a lot of that actually can be found within the company we're at, at the moment, right? I think the tech companies in Silicon Valley have understood this really well. And they have really great rotation programmes or kind of abilities for someone working in marketing to move into product, for example, you know, so I think a lot of the time, the things that make you unhappy, could actually be solved somewhat easily, if you allow yourself to be pulled by these other energy sources, and just consider opportunities around you rather than kind of mulling over all the reasons for why you're unhappy at this moment in time, right. So I think less thinking of what makes you unhappy, more focusing on other things and other sources of energy that might actually make you happy. Or else just wait for the pain to get big enough. And then you're, you're going to make that change automatically.

Calin Fabri  28:32

You have no choice, you have no choice but to make the change. Exactly. So you met la famiglia, you got a very good energy. And then you became a GP? How does someone so young become a GP? Are you a millionaire?

Judith  28:48

I am not a millionaire, my friend. You know, I come from kind of a very classic working class family, you know, my parents didn't go to university. They're fantastic, amazing people. And I couldn't wish for better parents in the world, but they didn't endow me with with these type these types of assets in my life. And so I also didn't become a GP right away, right, I joined as part of the investment team and then joint partnership over time. And I think part of the reason for why I was able to do that was that I have the privilege of having an incredible role model as a fellow general partner in the firm Jeanette, who, you know, kind of sees things differently, I think to you know, the way that other funds might run the kind of growth of their of their talent base, especially when it comes to you know, carry versus GP commitment. And so, you know, yes, there's lots of funds out there where you know, for a certain amount of carry, you will need to commit a certain amount of the GP commit, but then I think skin in the game can be very different for different people depending on the wealth situation that they're in. And so we know we found a very progressive I would say model what you might my GP commit is just smaller than that of Jeanette and I think that's what it took for, for me to So in the partnership, and it's still, you know, very significant skin in the game, but that can be different for for different types of people.

Calin Fabri  30:07

Yeah, I think that was a very good decision made by Jeanette and not kind of just ticking like to the outdated org structures, where you have to wait probably five to 10 years to be able to empower young talent actually, to have more skin in the game and to feel empowered. So I think that was a very good decision.

Judith  30:30

100%.

Calin Fabri  30:31

Yeah. What is the best and worst advice you have received?

Judith  30:36

I think the best advice that I've received is, oh, my God, I've received so many pieces of really good advice. But I think one advice, actually from Hanno from Personio, and I think he actually got it from Lars Dalgaard, another investor and founder in the valley, as the whole kind of mantra around not lying to yourself, I think lying to yourself is something that's incredibly easy, because we're human. And we don't like the pain that comes with being truthful to ourselves. But being truthful is something that's incredibly powerful. Because it really allows you to learn and so you know, kind of whenever you get a feeling that someone else is in the wrong whenever you feel like things are not you know, going the way you want them to go whenever you feel anger flaring up inside of you, for one reason, or the other, really asking yourself, what might I not be seeing where I might be lying to myself? Where am I be following some type of bias or some type of fault finding with other people rather than the things that you know, I could actually change and then control and then make a difference and improve over time. And so I think that's something that, I think is great advice. I think it's maybe even something you can you can teach in school, I don't know, you know, just really make sure that people, people kind of have the self empathy, but also self reflection skills to be able to not lie to themselves. And then when it comes to the worst piece of advice, I think the whole you know, you're born to do something BS, I don't believe in that, you know, I think you can, over time, grow into a lot of the challenges around you. I think one of the books that we that we kind of have as our Bible at La Familia is Mindset by Carol Dweck. And she's a great professor of psychology. And, you know, she kind of focuses on the whole idea that no, talent is so innate, that it kind of overshadows anything that can be learned or acquired in your life, but I do believe in talent, so I'm gonna be wrong, I do believe that, you know, people are endowed with certain traits on a genetic basis when they're born. And then those traits can compound over time. But I also believe that's only ever part of the story. And so, you know, I think a lot of the reason also behind no division behind inequality in our world, is that we teach people that they're only made to believe in themselves in a certain way, see themselves in a certain light, where they don't feel empowered to actually consider a different perspective. And so I think, you know, that's just generally really bad advice, you know, kind of telling people you're born to do this, or, you know, kind of, this is what you were meant to do in life. Because I think we, at the end of the day, there are so many paths that we could be on in life. And there's so much coincidence, and so much luck that goes into it, that I think we should rather be telling people to explore and to give it their best and to expect failure and to get back up again, and to find something that they enjoy doing. And that serves something that's outward looking that serves a for what, but that can be very, very different things in life. And those things can also change over time. And so, yeah, that's a long winded answer to, to probably bad advice. No, I love it. All right, advice that I would consider bad.

Calin Fabri  33:58

So what is your advice for founders listening? And also, if you have any advice for investors listening?

Judith  34:06

I don't think I don't think I'm yet at a stage where I feel, Oh, well, I feel like I, you know, can give broad general advice, especially to investors. I feel like I'm still on this learning journey myself. So I'll, I'll take the founder one instead, just because I work with so many founders on a day to day basis. And I think this is actually a pretty, pretty interesting, if not somewhat daunting time we're living through right now with regard to, you know, kind of the markets out there. And so I think one, I wouldn't call it advice, I would just call it something to think about and to find your own reflection on is, you know, the the current markets and the types of companies that are good companies and companies that are worth being built that should be built and, you know, I think that there's been kind of a frenzy in 2020 and 2021 when it comes to value and growth above all else and volume growth, you know, at all cost. And that's also tended to focus venture activity on certain segments that I think are good segments. You know, I think fast delivery is a really interesting innovation. And I think the delivery space in general is a really interesting innovation and in many more such areas, but I think, kind of because venture sometimes to that tends to function as a, as a black hole. A lot of the focus and a lot of the dollar is being allocated tend to be focused on these types of models, because you saw this insane growth in them. But I think there's actually all these other segments of society, think childcare, think education, think, you know, kind of workforces that so far have been overlooked, that are, thank God because of the supply chain crisis now, you know, gathering attention, I think there's so much more that can be built in terms of really building solutions for the most important problems out there. And I think in the last couple of months before the markets cooled down, we tended to maybe forget some of the reasons for why we all exist, you know, all the things that we have enjoyed, you know, all the mission critical infrastructure that allow us to be able to live our lives. I think that that's something that can, you know, should should get more attention going forward. And I think it's a time to be cautious. As an investor, I think it's a time to be cautious. As a founder, I think it's a golden time for opportunities. At the same time, it's always you know, the strange paradigm of, you know, any crisis is also a massive opportunity. And so I think maybe maybe it's a good time to go back to these basics and really figure out what sustainable, innovative technology companies of the future can look like.

Calin Fabri  36:44

love it, so much opportunity, so much opportunity to build in Europe. And at the end, what is your favourite song? Maybe I will end the episode on the tunes of your favourite song.

Judith  36:58

There is one song so so any other song is a favourite song of mine. I can't pick a single one. They're all absolutely amazing. But then there's one song that I have this like thing with my sister, my oldest sister. Anytime it plays, no matter where we are, we could be on a train, we could be in a restaurant somewhere we will just get up and dance like it's just our thing. And it's the it's the escape song like pina colada song from Rupert Holmes, you know, if you like the niccola I love that song. We love that song. I love that it's like about finding beauty and everything. It's about these, like, you know, this is like a married couple that actually wants to cheat on one another but then they find out that the person they want it to cheat on each other with it's actually there is actually the same couples so it's actually their spouse. And so it's this it's this kind of recursive loop that I think a lot of life is it's we kind of always fall back to the same situation we're kind of in and it's just about finding beauty and the things that are right in front of you. And I think that's just a really beautiful message in the song and it's also just a great song to dance to so I would probably say perhaps pick one song that will be my favourite song of all time.

Calin Fabri  38:06

thank you very much for taking the time.

Judith  38:40

Thank you so much.